Grow With Soul. Ep: 41 Marketing & Business Q&A with Kayte Ferris
I have been away from the Podcast over the summer and I am so excited to back in your headphones as we head into Autumn which is my power season. It seems to be where my energy is unleashed.For our first episode back, it is a bumper Q&A. I asked my followers on Instagram to submit any questions, which I have covered in this Podcast.
Here's what we talk about in this episode:
What advise would you give to somebody who wants to create an ecourse?
When trying to find your why how do you know that you have found it?
I would love to hear more about what product based businesses can offer to email subscribers?
I feel I have a good product, I realise its niche, how do I reach more people?
How do I get amazing testimonials?
How to decide between bringing out new products to promoting existing products?
How important do you think engaging is in terms of conversations and comments?
What advice do you have for creating a website, what elements do you consider essential?
How do I get people from likes on Instagram to making purchases?
Tips for navigating the initial slow periods when you have launched but no one has bought yet?
How do you cope with the rejection that's inescapable when doing outreach?
How to price an offering when some of your audience are broke students or unpaid interns?
How can we increase our own website sales away from Etsy?
You talk a lot about being present and how critical that is and yet you also talk about not doing the things that you really don't want do. What if the thing that you really don't want to do is Instagram Stories with yourself talking, is that crucial or optional?
How do you stay motivated to create when you have a new business whilst working as well?
Any tips for where and how to market an evergreen course?
Links and resources we discuss:
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Read the episode transcript:
Hello and welcome to episode 41 of Grow with Soul. I’ve been away from the podcast over the summer but I’m so excited to be back in your headphones as we start to,, at least in the Northern hemisphere, head into autumn. Autumn is like my power season; it’s where I feel most at home in my knitwear, and with all the turning of the trees, it really seems to be where my energy is unleashed.
I have a few things coming up over the next few months with all that in mind, which you might be interested in. First up is Basecamp, which is a course for those who are starting out in their business or feel like they’re going round and round in circles to get them starting to generate some forward momentum, and taking small steps forward without really feeling overwhelmed.
It’s a self lead course, but in September I’ll be running a sprint, which is loads of accountability and support for those who, like me, actually, really need that.
I’m also going to be running new online workshops through the autumn, which are also actually kind of similar to the podcast; we’ll be talking about a theme, but it’s going to be multimedia and really interactive, so we’ll be chatting throughout and you can ask questions. The next one is about creating and communicating value, and that’s in September as well.
Finally, I’m also starting work on a new kit, which is going to be all about planning and goal setting and reviewing in your business, which will be out sometime in October, and a new course especially for coaches, teachers, mentors; anyone who facilitates change in other people, to really help you stand out in a crowded market. All the links for all the things will be in the show notes.
As it’s our first episode back and a Q&A, it’s going to be a bit of a bumper instalment. I asked for your questions on Instagram, so if you’re not following me there, by the way, do do that, because it’s always where I ask questions for input for Grow with Soul. There’s not any particular theme, it’s just a marketing and business question free for all.
So I think that’s enough ado, so let’s get into your questions.
WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO CREATE AN ECOURSE?
Big question! I think at the end of last season of the podcast, or the last episode to this one, was about creating and selling digital products but for ecourses specifically I’d say to really focus in on who it’s for and a specific problem that you want to solve, because if you start broad, they can get so sprawling and you can think ‘oh I need to add this’ and they end up getting a bit out of control, where either you need to charge loads and loads of money for it, or you’re kind of underpricing it.
So really if you’ve got an idea, how can that idea break down into 4 or 5 other ideas? Then focus in on that one. Think about who is the person that you want to help with your course, get really clear on where they are now, what are they struggling with, why do they need the course, how are they feeling. Then think about where they want to be on the other side; what do they want to achieve? Then your course content is how you’re filling the gap, and creating a breadcrumb trail to help them get from where they are now to where they want to get to. For example, for me if we think about Basecamp, where they are now is that they are starting out and feeling like they don’t know where to put their first step, or they’re a couple of weeks, months in and just feeling frustrated that they’re not getting anywhere, and they don’t feel like they know what they’re doing. Where they want to get to on the other side is like they’re moving forwards, they feel confident that they’ve got a plan, that they feel like they’ve got a baseline of knowledge that they can build from.
Work on it however you feel you work best. So for me I need to do a big deep dive once a week and then just leave it and go and do something else. I’m not very good at little and often, I need to go all in and all out, but play with how you work best. I would say to pre-empt, or set up a pre-order, so that you’re actually getting it out there and you can start to get some feedback as you work on it. Instead of just unleashing it upon the world, say as you’re creating it, share a bit of the process so you can get feedback from people. So you can say things like ‘this is what the course is about, what are some things that you’re really finding you’re struggling with in this?’ or ‘I’m debating between X and Y, what do you think?’ So that people can be involved and know that it’s coming, and also so you get some good insight.
WHEN TRYING TO FIND YOUR ‘WHY’, HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE FOUND IT?
We all want to be able to check a box that says that we’re doing and that we can move on and I know that lots of people feel frustrated about the why, because it’s the opposite of a checkbox. If you’re looking for criteria so you can check that box and move on, then you’re really not going to find it because:
A) it’s such a personal intuitive thing that it’ll show up differently and quicker and faster for different people
B) your ‘why’ is a fluid thing that evolves with you so it’s never a ‘done’ thing.
My advice would be to ask yourself, rather than ‘is this my why?’, ask ‘does this feel right right now?’ ‘Does this feel true for where I’m at now in my life, does this give me a place to move forward from now?’ And then you can keep checking in on it.
From my experience, the moments where I’ve done an exercise or written things out, I’ve kind of been surprised by what I saw, or where I felt fired up about something is where it’s come closest to really understanding it but I can’t say that I’ve ever got to a 100%, this is it, self actualised, never going to change, ‘done’ place with it. Focus on it being right for right now, and don’t try and box yourself in too much because the more that you try, the less that it’ll work, you’ve just got to get used to checking in with yourself and learning things.
Quite often people find that it’s really simple; I say this in the kit, it’s often the simplest version because it’s a base thing, it’s the way that you communicate it that kind of makes it seem more fancy. So it might be that you’re seeing stuff and saying ‘well that can’t be it’ but it is. It’s there, it’s what drives you.
I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR MORE ABOUT WHAT PRODUCT BASED BUSINESSES CAN OFFER TO EMAIL SUBSCRIBERS?
Yes, I know that a lot of the advice is very service heavy, where it’s about workbooks and all that kind of thing. For product based businesses, offers are always going to be effective, which I know not everybody always wants to do, and I am inclined to agree. So, even if you keep them as time limited as a campaign, so ‘if you sign up in the month of September, you’ll get 10% off’, but also think about how you can do value adds as well as or instead of discounting. So maybe they get a free gift with their purchase, or something like that so you’re not just getting people in because they want the discounts. Think about things like competitions as well, so anyone that signs up in September will get entered into a draw to win x; things like that to generate a monetary value that’s not just 10% or 20% off.
Above and beyond that, think about the person you want signing up to your list, and what’s going to be hard for them to say no to. So that doesn’t have to just be the offers, it’s really thinking about ‘what do our people like?’
For example, let’s say you are a candle company and you’re into a lot of aromatherapy. aybe actually promising that they get a meditation when they sign up, or a book of journaling prompts that they can do while they’re burning their candle? That’s probably the sort of thing that someone who buys an aromatherapy candle is going to find hard to say no to.
Other things like a guide for a DIY if that’s something that your people would be drawn to, or a recipe book; something that feels like them, and that feels like you. So, really think outside the box and really think about that person and what they like and why they’re going to be interested in your business and create something along those lines.
Another thing to do is make your email enticing. So actually the offer of receiving that newsletter is the thing that gets them to sign up. Maybe you have something like a book club, or exclusive interviews; things that are really things that they can only get through signing up to the email as part of the email and that’s what entices them.
I FEEL I HAVE A GOOD PRODUCT, I REALISE IT’S NICHE, HOW DO I REACH MORE PEOPLE?
If your product is niche, it means that your target customers are niche, which is good, because there’s only limited places to find them. You’ve not got the problem of too much choice, so you can get really focused quite quickly. Using your own knowledge of the market, researching competitors, asking existing customers…find out where people are looking for information about your niche. Where are they already buying from? Who do they trust within that niche? And then outreach and pitching to be in those places is going to be key.
If you are in a really niche space, it’s going to be really helpful to be really visible there, to know and be known to other people operating in that niche, so you can be part of the ecosystem and get referrals, and just be seen while you’re there. It’s also going to be easier to be more of a magnet, so focus on creating very specific SEO rich content, so that when people are looking for information, if it’s a niche, there’s not going to be a lot out there, so make sure they can’t help but find you when they’re looking for things in your niche.
HOW DO I GET AMAZING TESTIMONIALS?
The flippant thing to say is to do amazing work. Be so good that people give you an amazing testimonial, and I know that’s not particularly helpful, but do bear that in mind that if you want an amazing testimonial; you’ve got a part of that as well. You’ve got a part to play in there.
I’d also say to make it as easy for people as possible to give you one – I mean we all do it, where people ask us for something and we’re like ‘oh, we’ll do that later’ and we never do. So something that I do is I use a questionnaire – I’ll send the link to it, and then there’s questions for people to answer, so rather than them having to rack their brains as to what to say and how to start it, they just have to answer some questions, which is easier.
You can pre-write a testimonial and ask them to sign off on it. If you’ve had a nice message or an email from them, ask ‘can I use this as a testimonial?’ and copy and paste what they’ve said. Make it as easy as possible for people, and make sure they have to give as little thought to it as possible.
Another thing I’ve seen somebody do is ask early. So, rather than ask after you’ve finished your work with somebody and they’ve kind of moved on with their life, ask it a couple of weeks before the end, so it’s all kind of wrapping up, they’ve got enough experience of you to know that they want to give you one, but they also feel a bit more obliged, because you’re not quite at the end of the process yet, so you might find that helps.
HOW TO DECIDE BETWEEN BRINGING OUT NEW PRODUCTS TO PROMOTING EXISTING PRODUCTS?
This is kind of something that I’m not particularly great at myself, because I always have new ideas that are so shiny and I want to play with them, but yeah, let’s roll back from that because you can’t always be creating new stuff, because products and things need time to bed in, for people to get them. If you just whisk them away before they’ve decided they want them, you’re not giving time to create that loyalty to a product or a brand.
Look at how much time you have and how you’re feeling. If pushing an existing product is going to be easier in a busy period, such as Christmas, rather than ‘I’ve got to bring out something new’, actually ‘I’m going to double down on these existing things because I’ve got loads of stuff to do and I’ve got loads of material around these existing products that will make it easier’.
Start thinking about whether people are asking for something new, or asking you questions that you don’t have a product to answer, then that’s probably a sign that it’s time to create something new. If you’re having a petering out of sales in one line, then that’s probably a sign that it’s kind of got to the end of its life and it might be time to bring something new. Maybe if you’ve learned something new and you want to bring it to others then that’s always a good way to develop business in that way.
I’d also say to look at your year as a whole, and see where there’s space. It might be that, depending on the rhythm of your business, spring is always a great time to launch new things, it’s something that happens in the rest of your industry or it’s a time that you get lots of traffic for whatever reason, that might be a time to be like ‘right, this is a good time to get a new product out there’. Whereas if there’s a slower period, maybe that’s a good time to start developing something but maybe not bringing it out. Or maybe like I said, if you’ve got busy periods, then you don’t want to be giving yourself extra projects on top, and that’s when you want to focus on your existing lines.
So yeah, look at the rhythm of your business, your year as a whole and start to plot out the times for new and times for old and focus on those things and those times.
HOW IMPORTANT DO YOU THINK ENGAGING IS IN TERMS OF CONVERSATIONS AND COMMENTS?
This is a question that could be answered in so many different ways, as it depends on how you’re defining ‘important’.
What I want to say is that with Instagram in particular it seems, we get funnelled into this one size fits all version of what is ‘good’, rather than what our business actually needs. So we kind of see this imagined set of rules, part of it’s blanked out, we don’t know what to do, but we want to follow the rules because we want to be ‘good’. But the question should really be ‘Is engagement going to help me achieve my own unique business goals?’
What Instagram does for me and for the next person isn’t going to be what it needs to do for your business. For some people. it’s going to be a traffic driver. For other people, it’s going to be more of a place where they connect with their community; for others it’s just a kind of base there to have it so that people can discover them there but it’s not really that important as part of their marketing mix.
Get really clear about what you actually want Instagram to do for your business, what it’s best set up to do, and then what are the things that need to happen in order for Instagram to do that job. You need to take control of your account, because you control it, you decide, not the other way round, it’s not the boss of you. Define what you want it to be and what you want it to do and just follow that path, which I know is easier said than done, especially when you see all the other things, and what other people have, and we worry that we’re not doing it, but ultimately, there are no set rules; you have to do what’s right for you and your business.
I’ve written before about how engagement is something that I really struggle with from a personal perspective, so I worry a lot about falling short for people and feel very exposed in those conversations that happen in comments and things. For a long time, the way I dealt with that was by not looking at it at all, just blocking it out. So my business carried on, so in that way it was kind of not important, but my Instagram did stagnate a little bit, but eventually the guilt of not being there became stronger than the feeling of safety I was getting from it. I guess I say that example to show that it’s not as black and white as ‘yes it is important’ or ‘no, it’s not important’. You’ve got to feel your own way through it.
WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE FOR CREATING A WEBSITE, WHAT ELEMENTS DO YOU CONSIDER ESSENTIAL?
My big one is please, please, please don’t wait for it to be ‘ready’. In Basecamp I encourage people to think about the minimum buyable product, and it’s so true for websites. So what is the minimum that you can have there for it to start doing a job. The more we wait for something to be ready, the more we’re waiting to get started, and it’s not helping us in any way shape or form when actually it could be.
So if I was starting a new website for something new today, the first thing I’d put up would be an about page, so that’s where people could get to know the story and the inspiration behind the business, and talk about the history; why the business is coming up, the problems I want to solve with it, how I got to that point. The second thing would be a blog, or at least a place, if writing isn’t your forte, a place where you can go into more depth and tell stories about the brand and what’s being created. That’s so that you can have constantly refreshing new content on there, and that people who find the website have got things to get stuck into to stay on the site, to learn about what you’re doing in a more in depth way than you can do on a single about page. What you also do by blogging is create that audience, create traffic, create SEO, and it’s what makes the website alive.
Thirdly what I’d do is make sure there’s an email sign up form, for people who are inspired by the story and want to know how to get more out of it or know when you’re launching when you’re ready so there’s a call to action there, something for them to do, rather than go back off and forget about you.
HOW DO I GET PEOPLE FROM LIKES ON INSTAGRAM TO MAKING PURCHASES?
I really feel your pain! The first thing that I’d suggest is actually just to make sure that people know you have things for sale. We never want to be pushy, and we kind of assume that everybody knows what we do but really what we’re doing is hiding our lights under a bushel, and probably if you’re not talking about it regularly, a lot of people don’t always know that you’ve got things for sale. Make sure that you’re saying it regularly, and unashamedly, telling people that they can buy from you and how they can do it. That’s kind of like your first thing to do.
But otherwise I’d start to think about it differently; think about the chain of activity. A like to a purchase is a really big leap. You yourself probably like people’s pictures but you’re not really in a place where you’re ready to purchase from them yet. So instead, focus on the small steps between the like and the purchase; get them to go from a like to a comment, so maybe by inviting engagement or inviting conversation in the caption. Aim to get them onto your website first and foremost, so by having things for them to read or to see that’s interesting on there that’s going to draw them over. Then, once they’re on the site, get them from reading that blog post to clicking over to the product page. If we focus on ‘I need to make a sale’ we can fall into a trap where we can seem a bit pushy or a bit desperate, which you quite often see on Instagram especially where people are trying to get the purchase before people are ready, and it just makes nobody feel good. Instead, think about setting up a trail of breadcrumbs, leaving someone through lots of small actions until they find themselves in a place where they’re ready to buy.
There’s nothing you can do to stop them needing to make that leap to buying it, it’s not just a quick decision; they have to make a journey to get there and so you have to help them take their hand and take them through it.
TIPS FOR NAVIGATING THE INITIAL SLOW PERIODS WHEN YOU HAVE LAUNCHED BUT NO ONE HAS BOUGHT YET?
What I say is make yourself so busy with creation and visibility that you can’t hear the crickets. And I don’t mean to distract yourself with the kind of ‘busy’ work that’s not going to move you forward (fiddling around on websites and with email templates are really common culprits there), what I mean is to throw yourself into being as visible as possible so that you’re kind of killing two birds with one stone; you’re distracted but with efficient activity that’s moving you forward.
So throw yourself into creating blog posts or Instagram posts or podcasts or whatever it is that you do that is going to demonstrate what you offer and show what you have to give. Create some free challenges or offers to generate interest, pitch to podcasts or to guest post or do an Instagram takeover or to collaborate with people so that you can be seen and heard as a voice in that space that you want to be known in. Be really proactive with engaging with your existing community, so replying to comments, yes, but going out and giving comments so that people can see you, because the people who already know you are going to be closer to buying than brand new people. That’s what I’d say; just be really visible with your engagement and create loads of stuff so that you’ve got it all there, and know that it will come, but that helps you to get through that period of trust.
HOW DO YOU COPE WITH THE REJECTION THAT’S INESCAPABLE WHEN DOING OUTREACH?
Yes, this is a funny one. So if you are pitching to magazines (magazines especially) but also to podcasts or bloggers or whatever it might be, you’re not going to be a good fit for everybody, or it’s not going to be the right time for everybody, so yes, rejection is an inescapable part. So it is first and foremost just accepting it as part of the process, and one thing that I heard Sara say on Hashtag Authentic was to think of the reasons that are nothing to do with you, but that rejection has happened. So that it might be that they’ve done something similar recently, or they have been thinking ahead to a different season so it doesn’t quite fit in. So what are all the reasons that are nothing to do with me that might have caused this?
And as it is part and parcel of the process, you’ve got to be working in terms of volume. I always send out lots at a time so I don’t get too attached to this one pitch working out, because if it’s only going to be a small percentage that do work out, you need to be sending out lots more in order to get your chances up.
Also, I tend to think that the ‘no’ isn’t the end, or even if you’ve been ignored, that’s not the end. You can follow up with something new in 3, 6 months time, so it’s a cyclical activity, rather than the no being the end; you can always circle back around to it.
HOW TO PRICE AN OFFERING WHEN SOME OF YOUR AUDIENCE ARE BROKE STUDENTS OR UNPAID INTERNS?
Yes, this is always a tricky one, and what I’d say is to create the thing to a set price point. If you know that the financials are going to be a huge sticking point, you’ve got to create a thing to the price point that they can afford. If you don’t have £100, you don’t have it, no matter how much you sugar coat it or cut it up. So rather than create a course or a product and being like ‘this is worth £500’, actually think ‘okay, this needs to be £50’, so then what does the thing need to be in order for it to be worth £50?
As part of that as well, aim for volume. If your people can only afford £25-£50, you’re going to need more people to take your course or whatever it is than if you can charge £1000, so have that in mind that while your pricing it and creating the thing that this is a volume driver, and even though the individual product doesn’t bring you much, it’s the volume of it that does.
Also just to make paying for it as accessible as possible with generous payment plans and things like that so that it’s easier for it to be a yes from people.
HOW CAN WE INCREASE OUR OWN WEBSITE SALES AWAY FROM ETSY?
This is a really tricky thing because everybody wants to get to a point where they get their sales direct. This question asker also did say that they’re doing a lot of blogging and Instagramming which is also a really good thing to be doing to generate traffic and connection with you as a brand rather than Etsy.
So, if you can, look at how people are finding you via Etsy, so any stats that you get from them, or the kind of things that they’re buying, and do some SEO work on your own website to make sure you’re targeting the same type of buyers with what they’re looking for. I very rarely recommend ads but if you want to start driving more traffic to your website and getting people there, that is something you can look at, particularly with product based businesses; just doing a few social ads to get people to your site rather than Etsy, and just test it, see how it is.
Focus on developing your email list, so if you can get people signed up to that list then they’re kind of committed to you and you’re then in control of that relationship, so with your emails you can be sending them product information and all that kind of stuff that means they’re going to be buying from you, not from Etsy. You could do things where you have either products or colours or things that are exclusive to your own site and not available on Etsy, and then make sure that you’ve got it in the product description – ‘if you want blue, you can only get that from our site’ and link it and things like that so there’s a reason for people to go from Etsy to your own site.
Also recover your existing customers; if you’ve had customers that have bought through Etsy, I know that you don’t always get their email address but you do obviously have their postal address, so it’s starting to make them think of you not as that thing they bought from Etsy but as you the brand. When you send out products, put things in the packaging that make them think of you and not Etsy. You can send them things in the post or things like that where you can recover that relationship and make them feel like they know you.
YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT BEING PRESENT AND HOW CRITICAL THAT IS, AND YET YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT NOT DOING THE THINGS THAT YOU REALLY DON’T WANT TO DO. WHAT IF THE THING THAT YOU REALLY DON’T WANT TO DO IS INSTAGRAM STORIES WITH YOURSELF TALKING; IS THAT CRUCIAL OR OPTIONAL?
What I say is when I talk about presence, it’s the presence of your brand rather than the presence of your face. A face can obviously really help to provide a human element, particularly if you’re a service based business where a relationship with you is a key part of what somebody’s buying, then it’s helpful, but it’s not always crucial.
You can be present with your words and imagery, with your engagement, so you can be present by posting everyday on Instagram, by putting out written stories, by replying to story but also being really proactive with getting in front of people, by guest posting in different places, so look at the big brands like the supermarkets and things like that, who are really present in our lives, but we never see the face of the CEO, right? So they are still finding a way to be present without showing a face; look at what they’re doing, they’re telling stories, showing imagery, being everywhere but without having to show a face.
HOW DO YOU STAY MOTIVATED TO CREATE WHEN YOU HAVE A NEW BUSINESS WHILST WORKING AS WELL?
First of all what I’d say is to make sure you know how you’re motivated, so something like a Myers-Briggs test, or the Gretchen Rubin’s 4 tendencies test will really help you to see how internally wired to be motivated and keep motivated. From there, you can be like ‘maybe I need to do XYZ’.
With things like motivation it’s a case of playing around to see what works as an individual, so maybe it’s that you need accountability from a friend or an actual public audience, maybe actually that’s the opposite of what you need, and you need it to come from yourself and make that time.
My advice would be to use more carrot and stick, so rather than beating yourself up to do it, set aside a weekend day or an evening that will be your creation time and make it really lovely. Go to a favourite cafe, or buy yourself your favourite cake and make a cup of tea and curl up and make it a lovely thing to do so you can look forward to it as a treat rather than another thing I have to do. I also think it’s useful to allot time to work on your business and time that you don’t. It might be that on Mondays you’re always exhausted so give yourself permission to not do work on the business, try not to think about it on that day and sit on the sofa and that’s fine. And then you can switch it back on on a Thursday where maybe you finish a bit earlier.
ANY TIPS FOR WHERE AND HOW TO MARKET AN EVERGREEN COURSE?
This is quite timely, as it’s what I’m experimenting with now because Basecamp is an evergreen course that you can take whenever you’re ready to.
So the biggest struggle with evergreen is that there’s never a reason why people need to commit. For want of a better phrase, there’s no FOMO to take advantage of. The decision sometimes will never quite get made to actually buy the course, because there’s no deadline.
Once we know this problem with evergreen we can start to think of ways to solve it. What I’m experimenting with at the moment is to find ways to make sure that it’s really present in people’s minds, so when they need it, they know it’s there. It’s going to be mentioned in my newsletters and I’ll talk about it in my Instagram regularly, if not frequently, so that as soon as people think ‘you know what, I really need some help with this’, it clicks that Basecamp exists.
Do outreach as well in places where people who need it might be, so whether that’s a particular blogger or a platform or podcast where people who need your course gravitate, put it there so that they all know that it’s there. A third thing I’m doing is running campaigns to generate deadlines. Like I said at the beginning about the sprint, that’s killing two birds with one stone because it’s there for people who need the accountability and self-led doesn’t really work and also for me it gives me a deadline to work to, because if you want that accountability and that support, you need to sign up by the second week of September in order to get it, so it generates a deadline to work to.